Monday, 27 July 2009

Gilad Atzmon: @uprooted palestinian - I happen to agree with every word you say here.

A debate copied from Palestine Think Tank

Originally Posted By Gilad
@uprooted palestinian -

Gilad Atzmon is a jazz musician, composer, producer and writer.
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I happen to agree with every word you say here.



Originally Posted By uprooted palestinian

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Sami,
I hate to see people praise Hezbollah, Just to mock Hamas. I heard Nasralla directly on new TW, answering a hypothical question: Would you cupture the 2 soldiers if you know the results. He said he wouldn't, but he never said he did a mistake or apologized.

You took what he said like those who say: "Don't" pray and Ignore "when drunk" Nasrallah thanked God for commiting that mistake, because the War on Lebanon was planed moths before. and Hezbullah could have been taken by surprise.
In blaming Hamas for the destruction of Gaza, you, are spreading zionist propaganda, Like march 14 movement talking about Hezollah holding the War and peace decision, while they know that it is Usrael who hold that decision. Both Hezbollah and hamas hold only the decision to resist and both did within the given condition.

If I read well your last comment, you wanted to end the debate.

Having read your article, and replies insisting in putting Fatah, Hamas, all resistance groups and your people in the same basket, its time to say that Sami Jamil has a proplem. I reposted your article at my site under the title: What's What is wrong with Sami Jamil Jadallah?

Indeed you have a problem, mainly with Islam, to be more precise I would say with Moslims. You can't cover your problem with being a born Muslim, or knowing few verses. You may curse Ulamas, and I would join you, because most of them deserve more than cursing, Being the official speaker of Islam doesn't mean that they are the true representatives.

Extremism is not a Talban trade mark, all those who reject the other and claim to hold the ultimate truth are Talnan. There is Nationalist Talban, Comunist Talban, and secular Talbam. If I have to select betweem the above mentioned Talbans, I select those who applied to fight the occupation in Iraq, in Afghanistan, In lebanon and Gaza, rather than those who applied for residency in the US, the "land of free"or Switzerland,

If I have to chose between Liberation and Democracy and human rights, I chose liberation.

In my previous comment I mentioned that Naasralla said that he leaned from Palestinians, I would add now what Mawwaf Mousawi said few days ago,

He said that it is the Iraqi resistance, not Hezbulah, who statigically deafeated the US middle east project, He said that Hezbollah delivered a new model of resistance. Mousawi was talking about iraqi resistance that included the Iraqi Talbon.

As an audiance, I would say, I am politically a Sunni in Iraq, a Shiit in Lebanon, a Hamas in Palestine, and a Talban in Afghanistan

Like you, I am a born Moslem. I started my political life as a nationalist in Arab nathionalist movement passed by PFLP, and moved with hawatmi to DFLP, In 1982 I decided to get out the box, and think with my own mind, see with my own eyes.

A book, (The book and Quran, a medern reading) I read in early 90's trigered a great need to know ISLAM, and to read Quran for the first time in my life. I read tens of books.

My intensive reading made me understand why Islam is under attack not only by the enimies of Islam, but by people claimg to be muslims just because they were born to Muslim parent.

They are the victims of Talban version the goes back beyond Ibn Abdulwahab to Ibn Taymeya, and back to Ibn Hanbal. They failed to see the thin thread seperating Islam (I mean by Islam the Holly text -Quran only) and the human understanding of the Holly text, between Islam and the History of Islam.

Quran is Holly, it's Human understanding (Tafseer) is not.
Quaran is Holly the History of Islam is not.

Those who killed Othman where commrads (sahaba) of our Prophet PUH.
And those who fought Ali in Jammal battle were lead by Aysha (his wife) and his Sahaba, Talhah and Zubair, and it happenned that the three opposed Othman.

Their disagreement was not about relgion, but about power. That disagreement started before the funeral of our Profit, and turned into a revolution (Ulama call it "Fitna" )against Othman, that splitted Muslims till this very day.

I never felt, any contardiction between bein a Palestinian by birth, an arab by nationality, a leftist by idiology, and a moslem by religion,

I hate to stop, but I have to, and would like to end my comment saying that Pharoah, Quroun and Haman mentioned in Quran are not Just names they are symbols what we call now, the alliance of Political power, (Pharoah), financial power (Qaroun) and Media (Haman), Religion, all religions, were in fact revolutions against that alliance. Prophets, all Prophet, were the first freedom fighter in human history. I would say the first "Suicide bombers" , because their mission using your view of "smartness" was by all means suicidal. And remember Our Quran call jews as Prophet killers.


Originally Posted By Gilad
@uprooted palestinian -

I happen to agree with every word you say here.


Originally Posted By Gilad



Dear Sami
you say "I wrote what most Palestinians think and say in private but never come out and say it." I tend to have problem with people who know what 'most' other people 'say in private'...

As far as i am aware there are at least 4 distinct pls discourses: OT, Pls who hold Isr citizenship, Refugees and Western Diaspora. These discourses are different by nature and aspired by different ideas and visions.
Thus i would refrain from talking about most pls..

I am also not inspired by the correlation you paint with Iran. It is also possible that in Iran, millions went to the street to protest against a majority vote in favor of Ahmadinejad. As things stand we do not know the truth and we may never know. It is a matter of belief.

I wouldn't dare suggesting who should be the Pls leader. You are entitled to do so as a pls, however, I would suggest to you to be more careful when you write about your people. Though I am sure that you operate in good will,
many of your lines can be used against your cause and the cause of your people (as Uprooted Pls suggested above).

Salam
Gilad


Originally Posted By sami jamil jadallah



Sami Jamil Jadallah is Palestinian-American born in El-Bireh, Palestine, an international business and legal consultant, and a veteran of the US Army. His comments are posted at his website http://www.jeffersoncorner.com.
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Uprooted Palestinian:

Salam... my disappointment is that not many of our people, the Palestinians decided to enter the debate, since there are very few places where forum such as this available, especially on a topic like this. I am sure if we had the courage to debate major issues and major failing some years ago, we will not be in this mess we are in now.

My brush with Palestinians and Arab organization was short lived. In the fall of 74 I was elected as the president of the Arab Student Association, Indiana University-Bloomington chapter. We had some 1000 members and of course they all came from the left and right. I simply refused to be a member of Fatah, or the Popular Front and the Democratic Front, and I did not join the Muslim Student Associations. Because I did not express loyalty to these organizations, the leaders of such organizations decided to call for a general meeting and remove me from office on the premise that I was not an �Arab� but a US citizen.

Rather than promote a long legal fight, I decided to resign but after I collected back my membership fee pro-rata. I did not rejoin the organization ever, and in 1977 I and with my own resources and with support of many of my friends on campus, held a conference on �Zionism and Racisms� attended by an over flow of some 700 students, perhaps one of the largest gathering. I was the speaker and I did not use one single Arab or Muslim or Christian quote, all of my quotes came from Zionist writers and the quotes where displace on the stage. Something the Arab Student Organization simply failed to do.

I am currently reading a book titled �A Savage War of Peace... Algeria 1954-1962� by Alistair Horne and just finished reading a book titled �Kill Khalid� by Paul McGeough and when you read the book you will see why Arafat and Dahlan were so desperate to destroy Hamas.

Arafat decided to give open ended recognition to Israel without ever defining which Israel he is recognizing, Israel of 47, or 48 or 67 or 93 or 2004 with expanding settlements and Jerusalem in exchange, and here the big story, for Israel giving recognition not to Palestine, but to the PLO so he can undermine and undercut any present or future organizations that can or will take the leadership of the Palestinians.

That is why Fatah always insists on the PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinian people because Arafat and Israel made a deal to talk and negotiate with each other only and no one else. That is why Fatah made sure it undermined Hamas the day of the election and supported and promoted the boycott of the new government.

This is the legal issue that is Mosmar Juha. As long as Israel made a deal with the PLO and recognized the PLO, Israel will never deal with any one else other than Fatah. It is as simple at that. This is what our people fail to see. As for

Hamas, no one say any thing of corruption, I only address the issue of suicide bombing, which I am totally against, and I have problem with the leadership giving full reign to Qassam Brigade without due concerns for the results.

Like any thing else, leadership have an obligation to weigh in all issues and consequences and due a cost benefit analysis... this is something that Hamas fail always fails to do. Why insist on firing useless rockets when they know Israel will use such an excuse to blockade Gaza and not allow any thing in or out.

Why after Israel left, did Hamas fails to promote the idea of opening the sea port under international jurisdiction, not Egypt and Israel, but the UN or NATO and tell Israel and Egypt they can go to hell and close all land access?

Hamas in Gaza is committing same mistakes and same crimes committed by Dahlan, perhaps to a lesser degree. A leadership that builds its success on �security issues� is bound to fail

Israel failed because security was every thing. Fatah and Arafat failed, because they thought that security is every thing. Security must be one of the basic elements of good government, not every thing.

Frankly I am also sick and tired of seeing both Hamas and Fatah spoke person on TV, they make me sick. They tell half truth and lies and they think people believe their lies.

Let us keep the debate if it means perhaps someone can come up with better ideas. I am for that. As for �What is wrong with Sami Jamil Jadallah?� I am sure my wife and children have a lot to say about that. Feel free to write say what you think. You are free to your opinion, but do not use George Bush statement, �either you are with us or against us�

Best wishes.


Originally Posted By Jeff Blankfort

I have been avidly following this conversation from the beginning because from my own experiences as a North American on this issue starting with the four months in 1970 I spent in and out of the refugee camps of Lebanon and Jordan and the offices of Fatah, the PFLP, the DFLP and Al-Saika, I was also frustrated with Arafat and the PLO leadership, but not being a Palestinian, kept it to myself until I could not longer keep silent while watching Arafat undermine the First Intifada and when his reputation among Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza had become so low that I wrote in the Middle East Labor Bulletin,before Oslo, that the Rabin government would have to do something to save him, which was Oslo. I remember a telling cartoon in the Jerusalem Post afterward which showed Rabin and Peres carrying Arafat on a stretcher and he was sitting up and waving his hand.

I thank Sami Jamil Jadallah for saying about Arafat, the PLO and the PA what has long needed to be said. As for Hamas, I cannot speak but from any experience but it faced and still faces quite a different situation in confronting Israel than does Hezbollah with which I do have some experience and greater knowledge.
Hezbollah enjoys the support of the greater part of the Shia population, is well organized, technologically advanced, and enjoys the support of a close ally on its border as well as the backing of a significant segment of Lebanon's Maronite population. Hamas, on the other hand, must contest with Fatah for the support of the Palestinian population, and as we know,must deal with Israel agents and certain Fatah elements that have been paid to undermine them. As opposed to Hezbollah which has a friendly Syria providing a source for Iranian weaponry on the Lebanese border, Gaza is enclosed by Israel and its and America's lapdog, Egypt. Regarding the winners and losers, it is therefore understandable that their was sense of victory in Lebanon when I visited there after the 2006 war whereas, from what I understand from a variety of sources, there is no such feeling in Gaza after Israel's onslaught, which stems from the different situations in both places.

I should note that Hezbollah captured the Israeli soldiers, they did not "kidnap" them as Sami wrote, since only civilians, and as the word, implies, children are kidnapped, which is a crime. Hezbollah's capture of the two Israeli soldiers was not a crime nor was the capturing of Gilad Shalit by the Palestinians since, as we know, the Israelis have been kidnapping Palestinians and Lebanese with regularity over the years and the world has had nothing to say about it. In fact, the day before Shalit was captured, the Israelis came into Gaza and kidnapped two brothers who presumably are still in prison. Who knows their names?

One of the most important points that Sami made and repeated has been largely overlooked by the Palestinian solidarity movement which is that "Oslo is nothing more than a management contract between Israel and the PLO, whereby Israel got rid of the First Intifada, got rid of substantial financial burden of funding the civil affairs of the Occupation and passed all the expense to the PLO while keeping the benefits of continued occupation such as expanding settlements and water resources."

Oslo may be dead but the financial situation remains the same.Israel has never been held to accout, either in money or sanctions, for its devastating war on Lebanon in 1982, an earlier invasion in 1978, its war on Lebanon again in 2006 or its onslaught of Gaza earlier this year. Remarkably, not a single payment has been demanded of Israel by anyone and that includes the Palestine solidarity movement with which I have the greater argument and the greater disappointments.

I can not hold the Palestinian people responsible for their present situation any more than I can any other people. Why some rise up in some oppressive circumstances and get new leaders and not in others is something historians have been trying to figure out and haven't succeeded.



Originally Posted By uprooted palestinian


Dear Gilad

Very glad with you comment, I happen to agree with every word you said to Sami.

Yes "there are at least 4 distinct pls discourses: OT, Pls who hold Isr citizenship, Refugees and Western Diaspora."

I would add Arab Diaspora (Working mainly in Gulf), even this discouses can be divided into at lest two distict discourses, those who came from refugee Camps, and those who came from OT. You Can't put all Refugee in the Same basket, In Jodan they are Jordanians, In Syria, they have the same ciivil right as Syrians, In Lebanon, they live in misirable conditions with any civil rights, in Iraq, they are stuck at the Syrian and Jordaian borders. You may go on and on and you shall find these mini "discourses are different by nature and aspired by different ideas and visions."

So, I understand and respect you refraining "from talking about most pls.."

Our friend Sami, dared to simply put all Palestinians in one basket.

I as an Uprooted Palestinian who came from Refugee came in Lebanon and joined the arab diaspora, don't dare to give Hamas lectures on Smartness. WE SAY in Arabic:

أهل مكة أدرى بشعابها

(PEOPLE OF MECCA, ARE MORE KNOLEGABLE ABOUT ITS MOUTAINS.).
And for sure Hamas knows Gaza better than me and SAMI, and for sure Gazans living under siege, not Diaspora Gazans Have the right to question Hamas.

I as uprooted palestinian, with lebanese travel document, don't dare to question OT Palestinian right to have in an Indepandent state, as long as they don't hijack my ROR. So I refuse statement that Hamas is following the same trak of Arafat.

AND YES, GILAD, you hit the nail saying: "the 'Wall' is actually the biggest Pls victory. They dismantled the Zionist project and made the Israeli into a 'diaspora ghetto Jew'. The Pls have managed to push the Jew back to the ghetto, and this ghetto will shrink as Pls ballistic capability grows. The Jewish state is a matter for Historians, its future is doomed."

One of the reasons for building the wall was Security, THANKS TO SUICIDE BOMBERS,

BTW, I don't expect and Arab american to dare supporting Suicide bombing, but I would respect his silence.

The Wall said bye bye to Great and graeter Israel.

It is really sad to find Some palestinians and Arab intellectuals evaluating the outcome of the wars on Iraq, and Lebanon with the number of Casaulies on either side.

Thanks Again

Jeff Blankfor

You wrote: "You are lucky to be alive to tell your tale."
May be you are right, Naji Al Ali paid his life for a Carton on arafat's mistress Munshira Mahran.

Sami

From the very begining I said I agree with all said on Arafat/Fateh and PA. I disagree with you on Hamas, On blaiming the People, On Mocking those wanting to go to heaven, and you shall not surprise me if you even talk about Heaven Virgins (I forget their Number). So, Sami, i shall not waste my time repeating myself,

You asked, " Why after Israel left, did Hamas fails to promote the idea of opening the sea port under international jurisdiction, not Egypt and Israel, but the UN or NATO and tell Israel and Egypt they can go to hell and close all land access?"

Sami, Arafat Excuted the Idea of see and air port and we saw what happenned to both ports, Yes Israel left and without conditions, but we know that Israel is still there on the the north and on the east, in the see, subletting the south to Pharoah. And same we have what happenned to Last Free Gaza Movement trip. What international jurisdiction you are talking about??,


Originally Posted By Gilad
@uprooted palestinian -

My dearest Uprooted Pls,
As you say , we do not expect support but silence would be appreciated. It is a war, it is a long one and the enemy is ruthless and inhuman beyond comparison and supported by the west ... The last thing we can do is to judge the oppressed.

7 comments:

Anonymous said...

Salam. You wrote: "I as uprooted palestinian, with lebanese travel document, don't dare to question OT Palestinian right to have in an Indepandent state, as long as they don't hijack my ROR."

Let me reply to you by saying that I as a Palestinian from Nables (which is OT area) do not want a so called independent Palestinian state that does not include all of Palestine. Your right of return is also my right of return, i consider myself as one of the refugees until all the refugees have returned to PALESTINE which i will never rever to as israel. When i use "israel" i only do it by referring to the state set up in occupied Palestine, not to the land. Likewise a mini-Palestine state consisting of only 20 percent of Palestine while excluding Haifa, Yafa, Tabaria, Safad, Bir el sebe3, Majd el kurum, Kufor qasem, emm el fa7em, sakhnin, sha3ab, lobye or any other city or village (existing or raised to the ground) of my beloved homeland will not be my state even though i am from a city that would be included in that fictionary state. So i didnt enjoy reading your comment as it felt you were dividing us Palestinians in to diffirent Palestinian people if you know what i mean. We are one people no matter where we live or what travel document or passport we carry (its only a piece of paper) and i dont want a state of my own if that means excluding the rest of Palestine. I want to be able to travel from one city or village in Palestine to another without crossing another state which would be the reality if we set up a mini-palestine in westbank/gaza/jerusalem and kept the zionist state on the rest of palestine. No foreigner zionist is going to stop me from travelling from Nables to Akka and from Akka to Al-Khaleel, we will drive in our own country without having foreigners dividing our land in to two states.

Islam is our solution and in it lies our victory no matter how hard things seem now. After rain comes sunshine.

And remember, all of Palestine is Occupied territory (OT).

uprooted Palestinian said...

Dear Anon

Salam
Believe me I was expectinig such comment from O T Palestinians, and I am very glad and proud to have it.
However, you read my comment out of the text and the debate. Gilad and me are clasifying Palestinian rather than diving them.

My Brother, we have to stop wishfull thinking and face facts as is on the ground and work to change it.

I know there many Palestinians in West bank and Gaza are refugee like me, and I know even in 1948 land there is Many Palestinians are refugee in their own land.

I was against Oslo from day one and still against it, but Oslo is fact on ground, that brought PA to O.T to act as sub-contractor to Occpation, for ending the forst Intifada, and later for disarming resistance.

I am fine with Israel leaving Gaza without conditions, and I shall be fine with Israel leaving West bank without condition. Both may serve as bases for Libration of the Rest of Palestine.

Anonymous said...

Salam brother.

"I am fine with Israel leaving Gaza without conditions, and I shall be fine with Israel leaving West bank without condition. Both may serve as bases for Libration of the Rest of Palestine."

Yeslam temmak for the last line because we must never settle with only westbank and gaza which is only 20 percent of our land. Technicly, I am not a refugee, my family history is from Nables but the plight of the refugees is also my plight simply because i am a Muslim and Palestinian and we must always remember this, we are in on it together regardless which document we hold or if we are refugees or not. Oslo may be a fact on the ground but it wont be forever. Remember that Allah (SWT) said "3asa ana takraho shay2an wa howi khayran lakom", Allah (SWT) can bring ways to make the Oslo document in to something we wipe our shoes with and those behind it fleeing in to exile if not catched and hanged by the people for their treassury.

I think about my people that are living as refugees (especially those in lebanon) every day, my dream is to stand by the border in the north and watch them as they return and help them build back their destroyed villages and plant back the trees, wallah it would be such an honour to do that.

When the Nahr el bared tragedy occurred in 2007 and i saw on tv how the refugees were made refugees for the second, third and some even forth time, i became so sad but at the same time, it made me think about how much more joyful their return will be to Palestine, our land.

yes i am a dreamer but the day we loose our dream then that is the day our Palestinian cause is buried and over. Those that want to settle with the westbank/gaza/east jerusalem, they have given up on the Palestinian cause because our cause is all of Palestine not the mini-palestine that the arab peace initiative is offering, not only that, it doesnt specificly says that all refugees have a right to return, instead it says "a just solution to the refugee problem" which basicly could come to believe paying the majority of them compensation (as if that is just or can be compared to returning) when the minimum of what can be seen as just is returning all of the refugees AND giving compensation for the years of suffering, not one or the other but both of them. The zionists and the PA both owe the Palestinian people trillions and billions.

My trust is in Allah (SWT), I count on him, not the arab leage or the PA. Believe me, he can make things happen, one day we or our kids will wake up to see how the mess was sorted out in a natural way that we today cant picture in our head.

The prophet (SAW) said:

"Verily the reward is as great as the misfortune; that is, the more unfortunate and calamitous one is, the greater and more perfect his reward. And verily, when God loveth a people, He entangleth it in misfortune; therefore, he who is resigned to the pleasure of God, in misfortune, for him is God's favour".

We should say Al7amdollillah in good times and in bad times and always keep our hope. Palestinians and other Muslims are paying the price for the failure of our ummah to unite after the enemies of Islam managed to crush the caliphate and divide the Muslims in to seperated statehoods with louzy hypocrite leaders that bring fitna and division to our lands while pretending to be religious by praying in front of the camera and then make their state-owned newspaper print the picture for the people to see. All of this comes back to the Muslims turning away from Allah SWT so he made us weak at the hands of our enemies.

The entire arab world is occupied, but most dont realize it cuz they see occupation in the form of an army but there are diffirent types of occupation.

Wallahi, Our solution lies in returning to Islam and people are waking up al7amdollilah and realizing it every day.

Anonymous said...

Sorry that i wrote so much akhi.

uprooted Palestinian said...

You may write, comment as much as long you can.
Nothing wrong with dreaming as long as we we deal with facts on ground and change it to make our dreams come true.

Uzma said...

Union is strength LessonIslamic center

Michael said...

You are correct on all counts UP, the invasion of Lebanon in 2006 was planned at least 6 months in advance, Israel mobilised their troops at least 2 weeks before it started and the two captured Israelis were merely an excuse for a justification. Indeed early reports , before the Zionist media network took over, suggested that these two Israelis were already inside the Lebanon and arrested by the Lebanese police
As for Hamas, of course there's a defamation campaign going on, but the bottom line was that they were the only ones standing between the Gazans and even greater genocide by the Apartheid State.

1) Are you aware of the fact that Hamas respected the last ceasefire between June and December 2008 until Nov 2008 when Israel launched an aggressive act against the tunnels which were being used to help a starving population? Are you aware that until that violation by Israel NO Hamas rockets had been fired?

2) Are you aware that this genocidal action by Israel was planned even before the ceasefire in June 2008 had been signed? http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html

3) Are you aware that one of the conditions of the ceasefire signed in June 2008 was that Israel lifted the blockade of food, medicine and fuel?



4) Are you aware that as long ago as October 2008 Israel planned to use to use disproportionate force
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1026539.html

5) Are you aware that Hamas offered to renew the ceasefire in Dec 2008 but that it was rejected by Israel? http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45350

6 Are you aware that Israel deliberately, and without question, used weapons intended to cause maximum civilian deaths?

Are you aware that Israel's continued occupation of vast swaths of Palestine is contrary to International Law and numerous UN Resolutions?