December 17, 2009
Exclusive MEMO Interview - 24 December 2009On 21st December 2009, on behalf of the Middle East Monitor, I sat down in the Rouda Palace in Damascus for an exclusive and in-depth interview with Dr Bouthaina Shaaban, Political and Media Advisor to the President of Syria, about her personal views on some of the problems facing Palestinians today. In her frank and passionate discussion she made a heartfelt plea to those around the world, including women’s rights organisations and environmentalists, to pay particular attention to the crimes being perpetrated against the Palestinian people by Israel and to stand up for their human rights and dignity.
Hanan Chehata: How does the Syrian Government view aid convoys to Palestine such as the Viva Palestina convoy which arrived in Damascus last night en route to Gaza?
Bouthaina Shaaban: I think they are a great idea and I salute everyone who is giving their money, time and energy in this way; George Galloway, you, everybody who is participating, because I believe this kind of convoy to Gaza is a very important thing to do. I would like to say to everyone who donated something to the Palestinians, thank you and I would like to say to all the Arabs, to all Muslims, Christians and Jews, that the Palestinians are suffering from the latest genocide in the world. And I would like to say to mothers that Palestinian mothers do not have enough food to feed their children. I would like to say to children your peers cannot go to school; they do not have paper and pens. They cannot go to a doctor. Consider the situation of people under siege for no reason except that they want to live happily and freely on their land, while someone is stealing the land from them, taking their water, destroying their homes, schools and hospitals, and killing them in front of their families. I mean, this is really the scandal of the twenty-first century so far, the ultimate crime. And I have no doubt that if and when people really know what is happening on the ground, they will never accept the situation.
This is not a religious conflict; the three monotheistic religions call for the worship of one God. There is only one God and the three religions believe in one God, so there is no conflict between the religions. In Syria Jews, Christians and Muslims have co-existed for centuries. It is so enriching for society, but the Israelis try to label this as a religious conflict between Jews and Muslims and invented the “War on Terror” in order to connect Muslims to terrorism in the common mind; in doing so they have succeeded in portraying the Palestinians as terrorists and so the world sees Israel as a bastion against terrorism. To the people of Europe and the West I’d like to say that it is the Palestinians who are the indigenous people in the Holy Land. They are faced with settlers who continue to steal their land, and have done for more than 60 years. Muslims practising their faith are not terrorists. The worst thing that any Muslim can do is to harm a fellow human being because Islam is the religion of mercy, of love, of affection, of living together, of peace. That’s the religion of Islam, but when Israel connected the War on Terror with what they are doing against the Palestinians, then the message was put across that Muslims are responsible for all the violence that is taking place in the world. Even if there are a few Muslims who are committing criminal acts this does not mean that all Muslims are criminals. The same is true for Christians. There are criminals who are supposed to be Christians who perpetrate crimes but we don’t say all Christians are criminals. When the IRA was bombing mainland Britain nobody called it “Catholic terrorism”. The whole Islamophobic idea of connecting Muslims with terrorism is done to convince the world that resistance fighters are terrorists. Resistance fighters are not terrorists. In countries all over the world there has been resistance against occupation at some time or another, and the Palestinians are also – quite legitimately – resisting the occupation and colonisation of their land by Israel. It is the right of the Palestinians to resist this occupation and the whole world has a legal and moral duty to stand with the oppressed and occupied, not the oppressor and occupier. The world has to get away from the propaganda of the Zionists which equates genuine resistance with terrorism.
When I lived in London in the seventies nobody in Britain or in France referred to “Muslims”, they were Pakistanis or Arabs; Moroccans or Algerians. Nationality was the label, not religion. Post-9/11 and the start of the War on Terror we are now told that these are all Muslims and they don’t understand “our” culture, an argument that ignores – very conveniently – the fact that most Muslims in Britain, for example, have been born there and are as British as anyone else in the country. Sowing such confusion has damaged the way that the Palestine-Israel conflict is discussed, especially in the media. The media is owned by people with a specific agenda, and that does not include conveying the truth about the Palestinians and their rights; they are often anything but objective on this issue in their attempt to thwart justice. And that is all that we want, really; justice, based on an equitable application of human rights and international law.
HC: What is your assessment of British media coverage of Middle Eastern politics in general, and Palestine in particular?
BS: The starting point for most of the Western media is the Israeli perspective; there is hardly any presentation of the Arab or Muslim point of view. The whole world has been informed about (the French citizen and Israeli soldier) Gilad Shalit and that he is being kept as a prisoner by Hamas in Gaza; he is healthy and being treated well if the recent photograph is anything to judge it by. How many people in the West know anything at all about the Palestinians languishing in dreadful conditions in Israeli jails, other than that they are “terrorists”? How many stories do the Western media publish about the Palestinian women prisoners who are tied to their beds while giving birth? Or about Yusuf, who was born in prison and was there until he was three years old when he was taken away from his mother who stayed in her cell? What sort of “free” media do we have in the West when there are 11,000 Palestinians in Israeli jails and nobody knows their names or anything about them, except one or two of the very famous men. But we all know about Gilad Shalit, a soldier who was fighting against the Palestinians in their own land, one of the occupation army. Most of the Palestinians in Israeli jails are not soldiers, they are civilians. About thirty of them are democratically-elected MPs jailed by the Israelis after their own people had voted for them. What are they accused of? Resisting the illegal military occupation of their land. The Israelis call this terrorism, but we want the world to know that the Palestinians in Israeli jails are resistance fighters, not terrorists.
I don’t want to speak about all the people assassinated by Israel; it’s murder by any other name. It is enough to remember Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a quadriplegic killed by an Israeli missile when he was in his wheelchair going home from the morning prayers in the mosque. What kind of people kill elderly quadriplegics in wheelchairs? They are afraid of this man in his wheelchair? This means that we, as Arabs, as Muslims have something very precious that frightens the Israelis. Very simply, we have the truth, which they will not be able to hide for much longer. Truth and justice are on our side and that is what they are afraid of. But no matter how many crimes they perpetrate, the truth always comes through in the end. It will light up our land and illuminate the hearts of people all over the world. I have no doubt about this because God promised us that the truth will prevail and justice will prevail.
HC: What role does Syria have in the national reconciliation talks between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, and is there more you could be doing?
BS: Syria has been trying a lot over the past year or so. You know that the political leadership of Hamas is based in Syria and we have hosted President Mahmood Abbas – Abu Mazen – on a few occasions, and each time we have tried to put some pressure on to bring about reconciliation. However, the people making the biggest official effort are the Egyptians. The two parties have met in Egypt a few times; unfortunately these efforts have not borne fruit. In my opinion this is because there are differing views about the whole conflict. Some people believe that you can talk to the Israelis and you can solve problems with the Israelis, and you might be able to convince the Israelis to be nice to you, to allow you to pass through their checkpoints in three hours instead of five; to reduce their checkpoints from 600+ to 400 in the West Bank, and so on. There are others who believe that the Israelis impose illegal restrictions, build illegal settlements and commit other illegal acts and they should be stopped, because the Palestinians have the right to live in freedom with dignity. This different perspective is a huge stumbling block because it encapsulates the nature of the whole struggle. In Britain’s Guardian newspaper a few days ago, it was reported that the CIA is helping the Palestinian Authority security forces in the West Bank to torture their fellow Palestinians. When you have a security apparatus that is merely an extension of the oppressor and occupier, how can you reconcile with people who want to resist the occupation? Either you accept the occupation or you resist the occupation. It’s a simple choice.
HC: In the last few days I’ve spoken to many Palestinian refugees in Syria and understand that they are extremely grateful to the government for giving them a home for the last 60 years. They have been made very welcome in Syria and they feel like part of the country. What do you think is the position generally of the Palestinians refugees in Syria?
BS: The Palestinians were uprooted from their homes and land in 1948 and then again in 1967 were expelled from their home, Palestine, to Syria. Of course as an Arab country, Syria has always been a haven for refugees throughout history. It’s a very welcoming and very warm country to people who are in trouble. This is our history and we are very proud of this, so when the refugees arrived we tried to give them the same treatment as Syrians, albeit without Syrian nationality because we want them to go back to Palestine one day and get their own nationality. Despite that, there is no position they can’t occupy in the country, no title they can’t get, no grant they can’t get. They have the same educational, health and every other privilege that any Syrian person has; we see this as our duty. We did the same thing for the Iraqis, when the Iraq war started over a million and a half Iraqis arrived in our country and our services were put at their disposal. This is what being human really means, to be a brother and a sister to your brothers and sisters who are in trouble and who are suffering.
HC: It is incredible that the Syrian government has welcomed the Palestinians so well, but what do you think the Syrian population generally feel about so many Palestinians in their country? Is it an issue at all?
BS: No, it is not an issue. If anything, they love them. I think the attitude of the Syrian people is just as good as the government’s, if not better. When Israel launched its horrendous war on Lebanon in 2006, within a week there were half a million Lebanese in Syria and none of them had to put up a tent. They all went to the houses of Syrian people and it did not cost the government a penny. It was all done by private donors, ordinary people who welcomed the Lebanese.
HC: What is the official Syrian position on the Palestinians’ Right to Return?
BS: The Palestinians have the legal and moral right to return to their land; it is ridiculous that Israel has a law permitting the “return” of Jews from anywhere in the world, but they refuse Palestinians the same right. This whole notion of Jews having the “right” to the land where some of their ancestors lived thousands of years ago is absurd. Imagine anyone else in the world saying that ownership of the land resides with the descendents of people who lived there long ago. What would happen to Europe? If you can prove descent from the Romans, does that mean that you can take your pick of land from the whole Roman Empire as it was two thousand years ago? This is a crazy idea, but Israelis have convinced the world that they have a right to something that they never ever had; this is especially true of the Ashkenazim Jews whose ancestors were east Europeans. And the world is silent. Could I as an Arab go to Spain and take over the country? Arabs ruled there for eight hundred years – more than twice as long as the longest existence of a united kingdom called Israel in Biblical times – but can I go there and throw people out of their homes, out of their land? The idea is ridiculous: my ancestor was in that house 600 years ago so I have a right to it now! I don’t know how the world community accepts this totally illogical concept and does not fight for the rights of the people who have been dispossessed of their land and robbed of the right to return to it.
HC: Regarding the expansionist policies of Israel, do you envisage the return of the Golan Heights in your lifetime? What do you think about those policies? Will the Israelis ever be satisfied and stop?
BS: I don’t think they will ever stop. I also think that they will bring their own demise with that policy because God allows people who are unjust to go on with their injustice, but only for a limited time, and that is what we are seeing today. But I think this policy will be their undoing. Moreover, I am sure that the Golan will be back in Syrian hands one day; if not in my lifetime, no problem, maybe in my children’s lifetime. We are a very old civilisation; we have been here for 10,000 years and many invaders have come and gone but we are still here and we are not going anywhere. We will stay here. Our children will stay here but the invaders will leave one day because that is the logic of history and the logic of justice. So the Golan Heights will be returned to us. The Palestinians have the right to go back to their homes and they will go back to their homes. Jerusalem was occupied before and was liberated before, many times, and this time is no exception. It is occupied but it will be liberated, God willing.
HC: What are the prospects for a full peace treaty with Israel? Turkey was mediating between Syria and Israel but that stalled about a year ago. Is there any prospect of those talks resuming?
BS: As you’ve seen, all this Israeli government does is get more extremist, build more settlements, confiscate more Palestinian land and destroy more olive trees. I don’t know what the Green Parties are doing in Europe but I have never heard any of them objecting to the destruction of these ancient olive trees in Palestine. I would like to tell them that over 300,000 olive trees have been uprooted, not cut, uprooted, by the Israelis and what the Palestinians do is go back and plant new trees. So, Europe’s Greens, here is a nation which is destroying the native ecology, which is destroying the livelihood of Palestinian farmers who have for generations cultivated olives and produced olive oil; and here is a nation which is destroying the environment, destroying the best of our culture, destroying the best houses. Did you hear about Al-Hay Al-Jarah in Palestine? This is the most beautiful suburb that was built by the Palestinian bourgeoisie, with wooden engravings, beautiful Arab houses, and the Israelis are demolishing them. If this is not barbarism I don’t know what is; demolishing beautiful houses and building ugly modern settlements in their place. I wonder why the Europeans do not see what is happening and do not make a stand against it. Perhaps they don’t know because there is a media war taking place, with Israel drawing a veil over the truth. Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt: if Europe finds out, it will do something.
I don’t feel there is a genuine prospect for peace with people like Netanyahu and Lieberman in the government. Did you hear what the Rabbis of Israel said a few days ago? They want to kill all the Arab prisoners, probably because they want to sell their body parts, something that the Israelis have been doing secretly, and using skin from prisoners for skin grafts on soldiers who are burnt. For God’s sake, there are people who are being killed and their organs being sold by a group of criminals! Why doesn’t the world do something? And now the Israelis are threatening to exclude Britain from the peace process if Britain boycotts Israeli goods but I would like to tell the British people this: there is no peace process and this Israeli government is not interested in peace!
I would like also to commend British parliamentarians, organisations and lawyers who applied for the arrest warrant for Livni, because she is a war criminal who said after her soldiers withdrew that she is proud of what they did in Gaza. So I’d like to salute everyone in Britain involved in that attempt to bring her to justice, because that in turn brings justice for the Palestinians. If more countries followed Britain’s example the Israelis would no longer dare to perpetrate their crimes against the Palestinians. This is my personal opinion – please be clear about this – and I am not talking as a representative of the Syrian government. I am an Arab woman, I’m an Arab mother, I’m a Muslim woman, I’m a human being who has the right to be angry about the gross violations of human rights in Palestine and it is in that capacity that I am speaking, and in no other capacity at all.
HC: Syria has been quite isolated in recent years; what role do you want to see Syria take on the world stage?
BS: To bring justice to the Palestinian people and to Arab people. To participate in genuine efforts to make peace in the world and explain that wars only magnify problems, they do not solve any problems. Killing a fellow human being should be the last thing that anybody would want to do. Dialogue is the best way to bring about peaceful solutions. Syria has always believed in negotiations, in talking to people, in solving problems through dialogue, not through war. Only armaments manufacturers like to promote wars so that they can make money and test their products; we believe that the war on Iraq was a disaster, and the war on Afghanistan still is a disaster. Pakistan is suffering as well. Of course, I think that the Palestinian people are suffering more than any other people in the world. So the role that Syria would like to play is to be an instrument of justice in all areas of conflict. When we think of what is happening in the Middle East we don’t think in terms of who is making money and who is controlling the oil. We think in terms of orphans, of women who lost their husbands, of people who lost their jobs, of scientists who were killed. We think of the quality of the human being and we feel that the integrity of human beings in the Middle East is destroyed through Israel’s occupation of Palestine, through America’s occupation of Iraq, through all the torture that is taking place. How can we sleep at night when we know that someone is imprisoned unjustly and being tortured just because he wants to live in dignity and in peace? We should all want to be key players in bringing peace and dignity to all human beings. Integrity is something that people should think about.
You know, when they ask why Muslims sometimes prefer death to life, I tell them, when humiliation makes life worse than death. That is the only reason why anybody would like to die because God created us to live with dignity, created our human integrity as the most precious thing we have. But if you put someone in prison and you torture him day and night, all that he can ask God for is to let him die because his life has become worse than death. God Himself says in the Holy Qur’an that “Oppression is worse than slaughter”! So to those people who claim that Muslims prefer death over life I will say, Islam is the religion of life, the good life; the religion for human life, for dignified life.
HC: I know that you specialise in women’s issues as well, so is there anything specific that you think that Palestinian women in particular have a difficult time with?
BS: I think Palestinian women are the biggest victims of the Israeli occupation. They are the mothers who have to feed their children and send them to school, with little or no means for doing so. They also have to see their men folk being imprisoned and killed, and their children being harassed and killed. Many Palestinian women have had their children killed in front of their eyes. I would like to say to women all over the world that the first right they should fight for is the right to live in dignity, and this is the right that we should help the Palestinian women to get because as long as they are living under a military occupation, they are not living in dignity; they are living in humiliation. It is thanks to their women that the Palestinians are able to resist occupation, in whatever form they can. It is the women who keep the family together, who keep the society together, who keep the social networks together. I salute the women of Palestine and I call upon all women wherever they are to volunteer their time, energy, efforts and money to support Palestinian women because they deserve that support.
HC: Rafah is the main crossing between Gaza and the Arab world. Is there any role for Syria to play, in light of its historical relationship with Egypt, to help ease the blockade of Gaza?
BS: I don’t know. We tried so hard during the war on Gaza in December 2008-January 2009 to get medical equipment and medicines in to Gaza and we failed. Why? I don’t know, but the Egyptian procedures seem to be so difficult to wade through. Sometimes we get aid in through Jordan. Now we know about this wall that’s being built on the border between Egypt and Gaza; I just don’t know what the Palestinians can do. If they go to fish in the sea, the Israelis attack them; the airport is destroyed and, in any case, the Israelis control the airspace; the Israelis have built a wall along the border with Gaza, and now the Egyptians are doing the same. May God be with them, I don’t know what they can do.
HC: Is there anything that can be done in negotiating with Egypt maybe to lighten the siege?
BS: Well Syria has tried so hard. I think many people have tried.
HC: The presence of Palestinian resistance groups like Hamas in Syria is something that is criticised quite a lot in the West. Why isn’t the Syrian government doing something to remove these organisations and thus be able to avoid such criticism from the West?
BS: Remove them to where? Many members of the Western-backed Iraqi government now were in Syria during Saddam’s regime because he would have killed them if they were in Iraq; we did not allow any of them to go, nor would we expel anyone. Syria has never expelled anybody who asked for refuge in our country. Instead of threatening or blaming Syria, they should blame the Zionists who uprooted the Palestinians and expelled them from their homes. This is what I don’t understand about the Western logic on this issue. Instead of blaming the oppressors, they blame the oppressed. And you know what happens; they don’t like the message so they shoot the messenger. It is so obvious, and more people are aware of what is happening in this information age, which is why people are beginning to lose faith in the Western powers, because the West is not making a dignified stand in support of justice. I am not saying that they have to be on the Arabs’ side, or support the Arabs; just be on the side of justice and international law, and be true supporters of human rights, not just those of dissidents against this regime and that regime; that is not support for human rights. Human rights are for everyone, including Arabs and Muslims.
HC: There seems to be a policy in Washington to isolate Syria from Iran, partly in order to make it easier to put pressure on Syria to remove groups like Hamas; what do you think about this kind of approach?
BS: They have been trying to do this for years but they have failed. Iran is our strategic ally. It is a country that is not attacking any other country, that is not occupying any other country’s land, that is a signatory to the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty, that is trying to make peaceful nuclear energy which is the right of every country in the world. Meanwhile, Israel has an estimated 200 nuclear warheads, is occupying another people’s land, is killing Palestinians every day and is carrying out slow genocide against the Palestinians, but it is not criticised by the West and is not asked by the West to stop its nuclear programme! Israel has a huge nuclear arsenal and yet is being fed with money and armaments from the USA. Why should we accept this sort of situation? It’s not logical and we really don’t accept it at all.
HC: What is the current state of Syria’s relationship with Israel?
BS: There is no relationship with Israel. Israel occupies our land and there will be no relations until Israel returns our land and returns all Arab lands to the original owners. The state of Israel is an occupier and is perpetrating crimes against Arab people.
HC: Are there no prospects of any peace talks?
BS: Well we have offered a peace initiative. Twenty-two Arab countries expressed their readiness to normalise relations if Israel withdraws to the 1967 ceasefire line, but look at what they are doing. They are building settlements every single day and have refused to stop. They are destroying homes every single day and refuse permits to rebuild. They have rebuffed our peace initiatives. I think that the Israelis want to keep the land, to keep the Palestinians subjugated and for the Arabs to normalise relations with them. They want their cake and to eat it. This is not going to happen.
HC: What do you think about the fact that Hamas refuses to acknowledge the state of Israel?
BS: Hamas has already asked for a deal based on the 1967 borders. Khaled Meshal gave a public speech and asked for 1967 borders but Israel did not give even that.
HC: Do you mean that, indirectly, Hamas has already acknowledged the existence of the state of Israel?
BS: Nobody is going to acknowledge it unless Israel returns what are the Palestinians’ rights. The same situation stands with Syria;, we were negotiating but we will not acknowledge the state of Israel until Israel withdraws to the 1967 ceasefire line.
HC: Dr. Bouthaina Shaaban, many thanks for sharing your time and insights.
Uprooted Palestinian
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