Gilad Atzmon is a jazz musician, composer, producer and writer.Email this author
Originally Posted By Gilad
@uprooted palestinian -
My dearest Uprooted Pls,
As you say , we do not expect support but silence would be appreciated. It is a war, it is a long one and the enemy is ruthless and inhuman beyond comparison and supported by the west ... The last thing we can do is to judge the oppressed.Join the debate
Originally Posted By uprooted palestinian
Dear GiladVery glad with you comment, I happen to agree with every word you said to Sami.
Yes "there are at least 4 distinct pls discourses: OT, Pls who hold Isr citizenship, Refugees and Western Diaspora." I would add Arab Diaspora (Working mainly in Gulf), even this discouses can be divided into at lest two distict discourses, those who came from refugee Camps, and those who came from OT. You Can't put all Refugee in the Same basket, In Jodan they are Jordanians, In Syria, they have the same ciivil right as Syrians, In Lebanon, they live in misirable conditions with any civil rights, in Iraq, they are stuck at the Syrian and Jordaian borders. You may go on and on and you shall find these mini "discourses are different by nature and aspired by different ideas and visions."
So, I understand and respect you refraining "from talking about most pls.."
Our friend Sami, dared to simply put all Palestinians in one basket.
I as an Uprooted Palestinian who came from Refugee camo in Lebanon and joined the arab diaspora, don't dare to give Hamas lectures on Smartness. WE SAY in Arabic:أهل مكة أدرى بشعابها
(PEOPLE OF MECCA, ARE MORE KNOLEGABLE ABOUT ITS MOUTAINS.).
And for sure Hamas knows Gaza better than me and SAMI, and for sure Gazans living under siege, not Diaspora Gazans Have the right to question Hamas.
I as uprooted palestinian, with lebanese travel document, don't dare to question OT Palestinian right to have in an Indepandent state, as long as they don't hijack my ROR. So I refuse statement that Hamas is following the same trak of Arafat.
AND YES, GILAD, you hit the nail saying: "the 'Wall' is actually the biggest Pls victory. They dismantled the Zionist project and made the Israeli into a 'diaspora ghetto Jew'. The Pls have managed to push the Jew back to the ghetto, and this ghetto will shrink as Pls ballistic capability grows. The Jewish state is a matter for Historians, its future is doomed."
One of the reasons for building the wall was Security, THANKS TO SUICIDE BOMBERS,
BTW, I don't expect and Arab american to dare supporting Suicide bombing, but I would respect his silence.
The Wall said bye bye to Great and graeter Israel. It is really sad to find Some palestinians and Arab intellectuals evaluating the outcome of the wars on Iraq, and Lebanon with the number of Casaulies on either side
Thanks Again
Jeff Blankfor
"You are lucky to be alive to tell your tale."
May be you are right, Naji Al Ali paid his life for a Carton on arafat's mistress Munshira Mahran.
Sami
From the very begining I said I agree with all said on Arafat/Fateh and PA. I disagree with you on Hamas, On blaiming the People, On Mocking those wanting to go to heaven, and you shall not surprise me if you even talk about Heaven Virgins (I forget their Number).
So, Sami, i shall not waste my time repeating myself,
You asked, " Why after Israel left, did Hamas fails to promote the idea of opening the sea port under international jurisdiction, not Egypt and Israel, but the UN or NATO and tell Israel and Egypt they can go to hell and close all land access?"
Sami, Arafat Excuted the Idea of see and air port and we saw what happenned to both ports, Yes Israel left and without conditions, but we know that Israel is still there on the the north and on the east, in the see, subletting the south to Pharoah. And same we have what happenned to Last Free Gaza Movement trip. What international jurisdiction you are talking about??,
18 comments:
UP, glad you are extending the debate and contributing. My only complaint is that I feel singling out the author of the piece as the one with the problem is unfair and unkind.
You have every right to do this, obviously, but he presented what I believe is a courageous attempt to express himself and as flawed as it may be, does not really merit to be tossed in the basket with those who sell our your people and their cause and collaborate with the Zionist entity.
that's just my view, you are free to do as you like.
Dear Mary
With full respect to your opinion, I think singling is better than the generalizing he did. I have a problem, with Hamas and dress code, but I have to controll my self, and refrain from the highlighting it to cover the crimes of Ramulla trators.
I did not tossed him in the basket with those who sell my people. I told him I understand your anger, and passion.
In fact, despite his intention he tossed himself where you said, by insisting that Hamas is irresponsible, Claiming that nasralla regretted Capturing the Two israeli troops. Between the lines I can read a call to stop armed resistance and return to fight With stones. I am not against the Idea, but I believe, a third intifada fighting with stones, is not possible as under a Palestinian Authority, acting as an occpation Sub-contractor, or even under Hamas Authority. It is not Hezbulla who started the Lebanese resistance, there were the Comunist party, Syrian National party, Fajer (Islamic Group), and others. They all were resisting without co-ordination, niether with eachother, nor with the Syrians or the Lebanese Army.
Hizbullah succeeded in Liberating Lebanon because he managed to control the south (the battle field), used force sometimes to achieve that goal. Hamas ir trying to do the same, in much much complicated conditions.
Sami is calling for an Intifada Putting PA, Hamas, and "Occupation" in one Basket. In other words calling Hamas, and Hamas supporters to fight Fatah in West bank, Calling fateh, and fateh supporters to fight Hamas in Gaza. Again, despite good intention,Its a call for civil war, and the only benificiary is the zionist entity.
Hamas, is walking through a long wide mine field, attached when accepting a truce, attacked when fighting, attacked for going to Cairo, and for not going.
It is Hamas, "irresponsibality" in Gaza, and Patiance in WB, insisting in dialog, that deepened the rift in Fateh, and may lead to a real intifada wipping the Collabrating Authority.
UP, you obviously read my site. It should be evidently clear that I support all forms of resistance, from the smallest to military armed resistance. It is nothing new that came to me in an enlightened flash. I have been as well the translator into English of some of the only interviews given by members of Hamas and Hezbollah to Italian press. I want their voices to be heard loud and clear. Our site has never hidden these sympathies. Our contributors know we are not fence-sitters. We are going to use our first and last names even when this means that in our own countries, support of these groups is damaging to us on a personal level. We are not in Palestine or Lebanon.
I support resistance through and through because I want nothing more than for Palestine to be finally liberated from Jewish occupation. This might sound like a slogan, but I have felt this way for decades, and I was raised in a society that taught us that Zionism was good and Israel was our friend. I even had family members go there, friends, etc., causing heartbreaking rifts because one can't support Zionism in any way and still remain human. It doesn't take much scratching beneath the surface to see all that is wrong with it, and to bring it down by any means necessary is fundamentally important. This means, for someone like me who lives outside the theatre of it, to do what I can do and that means providing and facilitating space for discourse about it. I can't think of a whole lot of sites that would run a piece like Sami's, and you can like it or think it is flawed (it's rare to find pieces that are perfect in all areas, because we are not going to be able to express our views in 1500 words or less and be clear about all aspects), but it has a great advantage, it is allowing important issues to be discussed. Is silence REALLY better? Is not writing it REALLY preferable as someone who actually doesn't write much but criticises a lot says? Do you honestly think that by not discussing and sharing our views and experiences that any kind of progress can be made?
I don't. I believe (and as a friend of mine who is a long time activist and writer has told me) the discussion is of "historic importance". There are things that need to be said. There is a need to know that Palestinian people can feel free to discuss among themselves and with others what they wish, hope, think and fight for. this continues below... it was too long!
I believe no one is outside the realm of critique or criticism. I believe that there are things that no one knows or has the courage or strength to say, possibly because of pressure, mob mentality, fear. I understand as well that you use a pseudonom, and I respect that. However, Sami doesn't. He says his things taking full responsibility for them. This is why he may say things that strategically or tactically you find wrong and that is a right both of you have and god strike me down if that should be denied to you. He may differ from you or me in a lot of ways, but in one way we are all the same: our love of your people and your cause, our intense need for them to realise their freedom and take back their own property, governance and dignity. We know they (your people) are portrayed as anything but what they are in the mainstream media. They are not treated with respect even in Islamic nations (and I've just collected over 3,500 Euros which was sent to Nahr El Bared camp, Sami also donated generously, and this collection campaign is going to go public in a few weeks... and I can tell you, a Palestinian friend of mine who volunteers there but can move about freely in Lebanon tells me of the hatred expressed by the Lebanese - even practicing Muslims - towards these people who have suffered every kind of disgrace and are forgotten by those who should be supporting them). There are lots of things that need exposing, lots of them. This does not mean giving fodder to Zionists or putting Palestinians in front of their bullets, as if they are not in front of them as it is.
If people are going to feel that they are punished for opening their mouths and encouraging other Palestinians to reason things together and find a united way to stop the oppression, have we accomplished anything? Please think about that. Freedom first of all is the freedom to say what one thinks without facing the firing squad. Doesn't the PA do enough of that as it is?
Also, please write an article for me about your ideas for gaining liberation so that I can publish it in the same space and more discussion can come from it.
mary
Dear Mary,
My english is not that good, so writing comsumes a hell of time, i need to update my site, so i avoid writing and engagement in debate, unless it is necessary.
I am prancticing my right of speech rathere denying Sami's right, otherwise I should not posted his article and comments her. My comments, others comments, forced sami to clarify or confirm what he wrote.
Gilad and me advised him to be careful, because Zionists shall use his statements to confirm their propaganda. We both highlighted the palestinians, depending on where they live, and the conditions they live in have diferent priorities.
Anon, here, in this site blamed me for dividing Palestinians, while I was classifying them rather than deviding them.
I am calling to put secondary diferences aside and look for common grounds.
Netanyahu dreaming that Palestinians will Eventually Topple Hamas I can't avoid thinking, how some palestinians are helping Netanyahu dream to come true. You shall never hear Netanyahu Saying Palestinians will eventually topple PA.
UP, I am glad that you recognise the right of free speech, because to be honest, this is the greatest problem that many people face, censorship, self-censorship, gatekeeping... there are some good reasons (we don't want to rock the boat, we don't want to alienate people, we don't want trouble, we don't want to be hacked, we don't want to give our enemies material, etc.) Silence, however, is what the enemies do want from us. I have known Sami a while, he writes a lot and he is by no means trying to undermine his people or cause, the opposite is indeed true. The discussion segments exist so that people can do just that, discuss the meaning and intent of the material presented.
There are some who actually thought that this debate should not happen! There are others who said, PTT is brave to allow this debate because you won't be able to find it anywhere else. Believe me, I have been put under a lot of pressure about it, and let me be honest, it was not Palestinians doing this, but Brits, Jews, Americans who just like other kinds of gatekeepers say they do it for the good of the movement or the cause or something.
On my previous site and PTT, the divisions in Palestinian society and the "types" depending on where they live and the civil status they hold, have been a clearly discussed issue for years and years. It was hasty to lump them all together, but I don't seriously believe that people who are following the issues consider them as one lump group. However, if you think that this lends to the understanding of things maybe for some who are unaware, fine.
Again, my criticism isn't with your content, UP. I personally mentioned the matter that the person who wrote the paper is now being put down as if he has done the unspeakable, (and my reasoning is, it is very easy to criticise in this way from anonymity or from an email, when sticking a neck and name on the line in my eyes somehow merits a further degree of respect.)
Agreed that it is important to find common grounds and unity. The enemy is zionism and also censorship. We can't forget that.
As to writing, I understand. No problems.
"UP, I am glad that you recognise the right of free speech"
Mary,
God, created us free in our human options, even to deny and debate his existance. Because, of our freedom, we are responsible, on how we use the power given to us.
So, I fully agree with you, and would say Our greatest problem, as humans was always how we use our freedom, and how to defend our freedom, and respect the freedom of the other.
Dear Mary,
In all respect to your opinion and your words of wisdom, allow me, please, to jump in here and drop my two cents. I happen to disagree a "lil bit" with you :)
I am, like you, all for free speech. But free speech implies an exercise of self-responsibility and maturity too. Much the same as there wouldn't be music without silences (ask Gilad, he can tell), for free speech being a proper channel towards the other, one has to learn when it is advisable to keep silence, and also when silences speak louder than words. One has to be conscious, so as not to make more damage than good. I mean... going back to Sami Jamil's article, UP has been stupendously right on point, and Gilad made important points too.
I felt appalled after reading Sami's article and his thorough attack on the Palestinian *people*, blaming them of each and every pest that has been afflicting them for the last century. He's been extremely unfair to his fellows, the most courageous people in the world. However, I did not add to the discussion at PTT, because as UP said it is very time consuming and, anyway, many people were talking-back already. But I feel like telling him a couple of things that as a soldier (that he said he was or had been) and as a Palestinian he'd think about. So maybe I'll even join the debate, thus you rather get some anaesthesia ready. LOL.
Back to the freedom of speech thing, let me quote the words of a fellow countryman of mine, Santiago Alba Rico, also a staunch supporter of the Palestinian people, who in a recent article said (my translation):
"No word can suffocate a fire, heal a wound or resurrect a dead man, but it can indeed feed a pyre, sharpen a knife and dig trenches. Words do not heal, but they can kill. So one must be very careful with them. "He who has something to say", said Karl Kraus on the eve of the 1st World War, "let him step forward and keep silent." In contexts of tension, when the violence can be spread by a small verb, there where historical causes do non stop activate an invasion of vehement and immediate grounds, we should not dare to say certain things. In connection with the ill-called "Palestinian conflict", the responsibility requires silencing certain words, the courage demands renouncing certain words, to hide long genealogic durations, placing the speakers into an extremely narrow present within which there is each time less margin for manoeuvring. One of these blind, exit-less words is paradoxically the word "peace."
Mary, all the best to you. Keep up with the good work!
Lucia
Bless you, great comment as usual.
You know, why I left PP, the reason was cencership, bamning, deletion of my cooment rather than name calling, you know why I, with your help and advise created this blog, and most likely you know why I am after PP. It is not personal. since the very begining, I felt that Tony's critisism is not contructive, and there is a hiden aganda behind bashing Hamas. I continued to tease him, and I think, my teasing helped exposing his realty. Finally he said it. HAMAS and Zionism are two faces of the same coin, may be zionism is better, because Hamas wants to take palestinian to middle ages.
Farnkely, I don't know Sami Jadallah, and I can't put him in the same basket. So my message was: I understand your anger, but you have to be vey careful.
UP, I've got fresh news for you.
There's a report today stating that the Obama's administration had made the first steps to reach Hamas. The Swiss Govt officially acknowledged that a secret meeting had been held in Geneva, at the Swiss Fgn Ministry, on june 16 and 17 past, to which top level american "expert" officers attended, as well as colleagues from France, Germany and the United Kingdom. For Hamas's part, the ample -the report says- delegation was headed by Al-Zahhar (Foreign Minister) and the Health Minister Basem Naim.
The inform adds that many direct questions were asked to the Hamas delegation, that were matched with outright responses. Hamas was requested to recognize Israel, and refused. It was requested to renounce "violence", and equally refused.
It was asked, as well, for more details about the long-term truce, that Obama is reportedly interested about.
The report says that "the Movement has been more constructive, since it doesn't ask for the palestinian state being stablished in the whole land of Palestine, but it would accept it within the 67 lines." (My interpretation of this sentence is that it is kind of face-saving for the USA, because Hamas has been declaring this for some time, this is old news, though adding they accept it "for the moment")
The article ends with an odd comment: "It is also significant that the principal interlocutor chosen by the USA to continue with the peace process had been Mahmud Zahhar, rather than the leader in exile Khaled Meshal".
Well, we cannot know if the USA really "chose" him. But he is the Minister of Foreign Relations and a founding member, anyway. It seems that the USA has not yet grasped that Hamas functions like a well trained orchestra where all musicians play simultaneously with equal importance whatever the instrument they play.
Possibly these news will make it to the international press in a few hours. Let's wait and see what they say... and the volumes of analysis thereafter. ;)
Hi Lu,
Santiago is a very good friend of mine! I translate his work quite often and we collaborate on many projects together. Lovely person. However, as well spoken as he is, nor does he have the right to request silence. I had a LONG conversation today with one of my best friends, the editor of Uruknet, and she had so many comments about resistance (including some fabulous insights on Palestinian resistance that I would love to share, but no time to do it) and the posts up on PTT, (and those up on PTT that she won't post up for various reasons) that there is indeed a place and time for all discourse, but allowing a Palestinian to state his views and frustrations while at the same time supporting fully the resistance of his people, is legitimate debate. It is something that I don't think is necessary for others to dictate, and I am put off when they do. It also means they maybe don't have the ability to reason it out (this is not UP's case it is true of some who spammed my inbox with insult for having posted it up). maybe they do know how to debate, but they should allow others to do so and asking the information to be silenced is wrong. I wish all could be open, 100% open about it all.
Sami is also a very good friend of mine. I feel that his contribution to the debate (though in some areas problematic) was very important, and as I said, there are quite a few who are of the same opinion. There are others who instead of debating the point, have said he should "never have written it". This kind of argument, telling Palestinians what or how to say things, (comes mainly from Jews, mind) is censorship and gatekeeping. I don't care how good someone's intentions might be, they decide to steer or guide the discourse, and they are on the other side of where I am.
I am against that. Full stop. I also mentioned that mobbing and persecuting the "messenger" is something I do not like. UP is free to do it, for sure. I am free to think it is unfair, but PTT and Sami gave UP the possibility to air his views. This is useful. UP made good points, Sami made good points, Jeff Blankfort made good points. I am happy about that. I learn from it and others are able to express their ideas.
sorry if this message is jumbled, I'm writing it from someone else's computer. m
"I also mentioned that mobbing and persecuting the "messenger" is something I do not like. UP is free to do it, for sure. I am free to think it is unfair,"
Mary,
You are free to think it as you like.
I haven't perscuted the "messanger". I criticized the "problematic ateas" in the message. If you consider thar a perscution, then I wonder what debate you are talking about?
I posted Sami's article here, and provided a link to it at PTT, encouraging my reader to join the debate.
UP, for days the corner of your site had it written "What is wrong with Sami Jamil Jadallah". Some people I know even took a very nasty "pleasure" out of it, and it hurt me as these were also friends of mine, or at least a few were. I do not like this way that people think they need to put down others for their own comments to bear more weight.
I believe that criticising and commenting on the content, on the ideas is ABSOLUTELY a positive thing, and I always encourage it to the same degree that I do not like that people tell others to be silent or that they should censor their ideas and thoughts (even if in saying this they might have good intentions). That is different from putting the name and picture of a person up as if he should be taken as a bad example. Imagine if you were the one in his place, just for stating your views and opening a discussion? I don't think it would encourage you to participate or be willing to expose yourself to that kind of thing in the future. As you can see, both you and Sami are fine people who only want what is best for your people and future, so this is why, as I stated from my very first comment here, I don't find singling out people is kind or fair. It is something we feel entitled to do with those who are REALLY against us, not with our brothers and sisters. I would not even have commented here, as the article is running on my site as well and you are contributing, but I felt that this was the point I wanted to make here. Sami, as you can see, took it all well. He is far more tolerant than I must be to these things. I would have felt very hurt if it were me being handled that way, and I suppose I feel others would feel hurt as well.
Mary
Yes, Mary, for days the corner of my site had it written "What is wrong with Sami Jamil Jadallah".
I still believe something wrong saying What is wrong with the Palestinians? A whole lot.
I have nothing to with the people you know who took a very nasty "pleasure" out of it, and it was not my intebtion to hurt anybody, or put down others, and its up to the readers to weigh my comments.
I criticised and commented on the content, on the ideas, and you know that I have no power to silent, moderate, censor ideas and thoughts on your site. I don't have to imagine if I were the one in his place, I was in that place tens of times not only for opening a discussion, but for even a comment, and it encouraged me to fight like dog to defend my right of speech, and my opinions. I was banned, cencored, even some so called palestinian sites. My MSN site was deleted 12 times upon complaines from Zionist, and used start nest day, until they gave up.
BTW, my first comment at PTT appeared after several days, and haven't complained. Its your site and you are free in managing it. I never told you what to post, or what not to post.
This site is not moderated' and does not require readers to provide their e-mails.
I am not singling people I am singling ideas, problematic ideas, even if its the ideas of our brothers and sisters. You were and you are still welcome to comment here, sami is welcome, even those who banned me at their site are welcome, and shall be given full freedom of speech. I welcomed the guy who just came to say that I stole a picture fom his site.
UP, sorry if it took you "days" to see your comment up. I really do doubt it though, if you don't mind me saying it, because I am the person who moderates comments and after the first one is approved, the rest go up automatically. I was online in those days at least once a day, and I seem to remember in those particular days it was actually more frequently, and for certain, I had checked if there were comments. Maybe you are thinking about some other site, because I rarely am gone for more than two days, and if I am, I try to find a computer so that I can attend to the moderation anyway.
Do you know why comments are moderated? I suppose not. You might imagine the quantity of hate mail (and when someone has their name up, some of this hatemail gets very explicit and particular. there is no end to the kind of horrible things certain people think they can do and say) and insults to others as well as vulgarity, spam, and garbage. If i don't block those things (let's say there are about 30 to 40 a day...) they will pollute the site and make it impossible for debate.
As I stated so many times, ideas and thoughts are open for debate 360° and I do question the motivation of anyone who privately or publicly has told me (sometimes in very crude ways) that this debate/discussion should not take place. There are others who have told me privately/publicly that it is one of the most important debates they have witnessed in a very long time and I tend to agree that there are important things that have been said.
Having stated that, I think you should take a look now. There are new, and I believe, very important comments, one of them is addressing you in particular. It is the question of why the Wall is a Palestinian victory. Do you truly believe that? It also questions that there has indeed been a "victory" of Hamas.
Those who question palestinian victory are...What..I can't find the proper word.
Nasrallah sulted, palestinian fighting within the belly of the Zionist beast.
So the wall is a Palestinian Victory? Are we supposed to stop protesting it then?
and UP, I got to the bottom of your problem with the latest post being held for moderation. You had 4 hyperlinks in it. The automated system recognises that as spam and holds it until a human can judge if it is spam or not.
I am sorry you don't understand the need to have moderated comments, but for a site that gets around 100 comments a day (half of them automated porno spam that would bother a lot of people and just create a mess) if there were no moderation, it would be impossible. I told you already, I am the one who has to take the time to manage the site, and sorthing through the comments takes time that would be otherwise spent in inserting content, and having that junk already diverted into a bin helps a lot. That other things end up there because a computer is not a human is unfortunate, but don't immediately assume the worst. Thank you.
Mary
Thank you for explaining, you don't needs to justfy why you moderate comment. I metioned it against acusing me of trying to silence people. I ghave no power to do it at your site, and I am not doing it where I have that power. I simly delete spasm.
Concerning the wall,
Don't put words on my mouth, where did I said we should stop protesting???
I assume you haven't read my "defense", other wise you have a problem. Its here after your comment, copied from PTT.
If you want to say anything you are welcome to say it there, I mean under the same title
Post a Comment